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The End of Time (Part 2 and 1) (Spoilers)


Administrator - Posted on 01 January 2010

Now that you have seen The End of Time, Parts 1 and 2. What did you like about it? What didn't you?

Remember we will be reviewing Part 2 on Doctor Who: Podshock Live on Sunday. See details here: Doctor Who: Podshock Live Reviewing The End of Time.

Everything good about RTD's era, with nothing bad. Everything amazing and incredible and silly and... Perfect.

Oh... That's what I wanted to see.
odessasteps's picture

 

at least it was better than part 1.

 

Best thing may have been the swerve involving the "knock 4 times" ending.

I really don't even want to talk about the mystery woman's identity, if it's what it appeared to be.

 

Bring on the Moffat/Smith era.

 

Idiom's picture

The Doctor is dead!

Long live the Doctor!

 

 

I'm really not sure what I thought about that. I have to watch it again tomorrow.

Yes. No. Maybe.

My seven year old daughter cried her eyes out !

President Nice's picture

Best. Regeneration. Ever.

Best. Final. Line. Ever.

Everything about this episode was brilliant. I especially especially loved the "knock 4 times" twist, which I guessed seconds before it happened and almost burst out crying then and there. It epitomised everything about what makes the Doctor Who he is, willing to die (to paraphrase Babylon 5) not for glory or power or fame but to save one life, alone in the dark where no-one will ever know. I cannot fault the episode, even the scene with a certain someone made sense and didn't break continuity (again).

And bear in mind that I thought the first episode was pretty poor. Not as poor as some thought but cerainly very low down in my list of favourites. This one makes my top ten.

Abersoch's picture

I enjoyed this one.  I was expecting a sort of epic-end-of-Doctor celebration so I wasn't disappointed.

Good things:

Like the twist with the knock 4 times.  I'd watched part one and thought "was that REALLY it?" when the Master was beating on the oil can with the stick (didn't seem very prophetic to me) so it was nice to be wrong footed by it.  Plus that scene was played very nicely by both David Tennant and Bernard Cribbins.  There was no need to explain it.  They just said it all with their faces and the music.

The "goodbyes" to the various characters was a nice touch.  I'm inclined to let them off regarding my thoughts of "isn't this regeneration taking an AWFULLY long time?"  Martha rather surprised me though (I won't say why to avoid ruining it for eveyone).

I knew it was going to be a sad one so I wasn't that affected by it at the end but the only part that nearly got me was the part where Verity Newman looked up and asked "were you?"  I'd just been sipping a cup of tea at the time and it was suddenly the hardest thing in the world to swallow.  Again, a very nicely understated moment.

I liked the whole way that the planting of the "never ending drums" in the Master's head were worked into the plot.  It could possibly explain his entire motivation throughout the series from the 1970s onwards. 

Liked the revelation about Timothy Dalton and the twist on the Timelord Culture and why everything happened how it did.

The bad:

The number of characters that were built up to be something and then summarily dismissed without explanation - Miss Trefusis, the prison Governor, Naismith and his daughter.  They seemed to be shaping up to be interesting but Naismith in particular was really one-dimensional.  He served no purpose other than to enable the Master to achieve his aims and then he was promptly forgotten about.  I wasn't particularly happy with his motivation for creating the device ("It's to make my daughter immortal"....erm...why precisely?)

The connection between Claire Bloom and Wilf was never explained.  Fair enough if that was deliberately left hanging for future development I can understand it but RTD seemed to state during the Confidential that he expected this was the final time the characters would be used.  The feeling I was left with was that this was a thread forgotten about rather than deliberately left open.

Anyway, overall I enjoyed it.  I just hope the bits left hanging are picked up on at some future point.

I can't believe this part was written by the same RTD who wrote the first part. RTD's writing is always at its best when he's writing characters, and this story pretty much stripped away all the garbage from part one (no Naismith, almost no super-villain The Master, etc).

The story still has massive plot holes and extraneous characters, as Abersoch pointed out, but at least the writing was far better. Again, the reason why it's better is because RTD focused on the characters, and that's always been where RTD's writing has been the best.

The tie-ups were great, although I must admit by the end of those shots the emotional buildup kind of lost its steam for me. I kept thinking "Ok, he's about to regeneration... and no he isn't". I mean, I enjoyed them, but by the end it was more of a "Finally!" moment. Oh, and I think 10's final words are quite forgettable, unfortunately.

Great to see Wilf in Luke Skywalker mode but the rest was pretty forgettable.

I mean, the Timelords return, Gallifrey hangs large in the sky and what happens? It just goes away again. BORING!!!

The 10th Doctor went out like a petulant child...'I don't want to go!' Well tough, Tennant, you're baloney without the mayo, you're vapour, you're chip-wrappings. Your Hamlet was rubbish as well.

Wink

odessasteps's picture

 

If the fall from the radio tower "killed" Tom Baker's Doctor, you'd think that jumping from a ship falling thousands? of feet and crashing into the mansion would have been enough to do it Tennant's Doctor.

I guess he needed a giant FALL and massive radiation to die.

 

And then, it took forever seemingly.

Louis Trapani's picture

If the fall from the radio tower "killed" Tom Baker's Doctor, you'd think that jumping from a ship falling thousands? of feet and crashing into the mansion would have been enough to do it Tennant's Doctor.

The same thought went through my mind as well during that scene.

I don't know what they were thinking.

Oh well.

Cheers,
Louis

Troy Baker's picture

I have a theory as to why the fall didn't kill the Doctor, but it's highly unlikely. Suppose the dome acted as a 'cushion" and slowed down his fall so the impact to the floor was not so great.

The idea is that when he hit the dome it slowed him down but not enough to stop breaking through and landing on the floor of the mansion. The result he hit the floor with less impact.

I said it was a stretch - I don't buy it myself, but I'll put it out there for consideration.

romana_II's picture

Overall I enjoyed it... I don't know what quite to think yet, but I didn't dislike it.

I think I was building up to something so fantastic in my head, wanting Ten to go out with a huge bang and that I think I've hyped it up way too much in my head. So.... I think I'm just still morning right now for Ten, and watching Matt Smith at the end was a very very surreal feeling (this is my first regeneration as a Who fan)

What did everyone think of the little glimse of Eleven that we got??

One thing I do know is that I was right about the "It is returning through dark" thing at the end of Planet of the Dead. I said way back then that it would be Gallifrey... and I was right!!! Wooo!!

There were some things I didn't like so much, or are a little undecided about, but they are mostly just little, small character things.

 

Things I didn't like that much

- MARTHA LEFT TOM FOR MICKEY!!!! Why???? Tom was so lovely :(
This is possibly the only bit of the RTD era that I hate, and I repeat hate! I've never hated anything that he's done. I refuse to include that scene in my canon... it didn't happen.
Unless it is explained, and shown, Tom and Martha's relationship and why they broke up, I refuse to expect it.

- This one I'm a little undecided about whether I love it, like it or slightly dislike it, Jack's final scene. At least it's kept up the canon from Torchwood that he's left earth, but how long since the end of COE is this scene, 1 year, 10 years, 100 years??? I would of liked a little more clarity. However, he did seem a little emo sitting at the bar, so I guess that could mean it's more in the 1 year later section.

I was really half expecting the piece of paper to say "I'm sorry" or something similar, and I would of been really really happy with that weirdly enough, but at the same time, I think what was on the piece of paper was lovely, the Doctor giving Jack the nudge he really needed, to move on an be happy again. Plus, it really doesn't hurt that Alonso and Ianto actually do look strangely similar ^_^
Either way, it was certainly less angst filled and nicer than most of the post COE Doctor/Jack fanfics I've read in the last few months.

But for me, it seemed like Jack's final scene was overshadowed slightly by "let's show all the monster from the past 4 years because we couldn't afford it last time"
Oh, and that Adipose was a wee bit young to be in that bar wasn't he???

- Mystery woman not explained, or the Doctor's connection to Wilf and Wilf's connection to the lady. Unless I missed something. I had a theory that she was the Doctor's mum, but looking after watching the episode, I think she's the Doctor's wife (Susan's mum) because the moment Wilf asks the Doctor who the women was, he doesn't say anything but look at Donna, in her wedding dress. Just my theory really. (I haven't watched the confidential yet so I could be wrong)

- The Master's death??? I loved how the Master stood up to the Timelords, and how in a way, he saved the Doctor. (My slash fangirl goes SQUEEEEEEEEEE) but again, I love Simm Master almost as much as Ten, so again, I'm morning him too.

 

Things I absolutely loved however (fangirl warning)

- The Master in the UNIT gear *fans self*

- The Doctor in the chair O________________O *explodes*

- The oh so slashy speech the Doctor has to the Master about them travelling the universe together "You could be so beautiful" *melts*

- Actually any scene between the Doctor and Master. I am going to miss the Tenth Doctor and Simm Master so so so much. *squishs them both*

- Oh, and David's acting. *wibble*

 

Overall I liked it, but my head's a little bit of a muddle due to my regeneration fangirl angst, I should have more throughs in a couple of day. Once I'm over most of my angst.
Strangely, I think knowing for a year that Ten was leaving, and the regeneration scare we had in Journey's End, and actually helped me a lot.
Amasingly... I didn't cry. I had my tissue next to me all ready to go and nothing. Some moisture, and little bit of wibbling, but no crying.

Either way, bye bye RTD, bye bye Tennant. Thanks for all the memories.

~Hysterical Woman #1088~
The Wailing Fangirl Podcast

Abersoch's picture

No, I think you're wrong about the mystery woman Romana_II - I think the mystery woman was actually Nerys. Wink 

I thought he was looking at Donna's mom, not at Donna.  His point being that the mystery woman was HIS mom.  Could be wrong. RTD is good with leaving wholes to be filled later, so maybe some day we'll find out....  maybe.

supremacy is relative

Who is the woman in white?  Is it really important to know who she is or understand that there is some kind of unspoken love and understanding that the Doctor has for her.  It was observed when he was choosing whether to shoot at Rassilon or at The Master.

Part of me would still like to believe that The Doctor Donna lives on and somehow finds a way to escape her metacrisis and come back full force after a few of her "brain bombs" I'm sure that she'd evolve in some way.  However, could she make it back to Gallifrey--knowing the Doctors memories would she?

 

Well, I'll tell you something that should be of vital interest to you. That you, Sir, are a NITWIT! ~The Third Doctor

I haven't followed DW except for the newest incarnations in Eccelston and Tennant, so my knowledge of true Who history could fit on the head of a pin, so please forgive me if I make any blatant statements of ignorance here...

I don't think the Doctor was trying to identify anyone as the mystery woman when Wilf asked about her.  I think he was just pointedly ignoring the question as it was too painful for him to think about.  What I find even more intriguing is the fact that if you watch the Master very closely that last time the Doctor turns, after he's seen the woman and just before he tells the Master to get out of the way, the Master looks OVER the Doctor's shoulder at the woman, and his face gets this sad, wistful look.  I think the woman might have been his mum, and if she was...could she also have been the Doctor's?  Are they brothers?  They certainly act like it if you think about it.  The lengths the Doctor has gone to to save the Master are pretty extraordinary.  And would the Master have really sacrificed himself for a change of heart over a man who was only his arch enemy, and not his brother?  That was an act of protection.

Wait. It was  great to see Wilf IN Luke? WHAT!?? THat couldn't be shown on terrestrial tv could it? Oh, wait, you mean Luke Skywalker mode. Sheeshe.

"And so it came to pass that on NewYear's Day, the series DOCTOR WHO ceased to be entertaining, relevant, and anything really..."  

 

Holy cow. That was unbelievably bad. It was like a DOT to DOT matrix of how to NOT do Doctor Who. It was like very poor fan fiction tied up with every cliché DW and sci fi in general. I don’t know where to start. Let’s try shall we to see why this is the worst DW ever made:

 

First, we have the “FOR GALLFREY!!!” recap—only it’s not. Then we get The President and his council…is anyone reminded of the equally poor CHILDREN OF TIME council? RTD seems to have one or two trick ponies and he keeps going back to those again and again and dilutes them of any power or meaning. We get the President, not leading but killing anyone who has anything against him. We later find out this is Rassalon and he was there, resurrected again too like the Master… yeah cause that was such a good idea. We also have a seer, visionary circa THE RIBOS OPERATION. She saw so much. The Time Lords: did they mean anything in the long run? Oh, they were the enemy. Gotcha

 

Did anyone feel like we were not given the pieces we needed to feel anything? Did anyone feel cheated as enemies sprang left and right, the Doctor spinning on his heels, literally to aim a gun at the Master and at Rassalon? Oh yeah, the big reveal that it was Rassalon. Oh my, shocking. At this point, I was expecting anything or anyone to pop up and we got…Timothy Dalton as Rassalon and not much else. Oh what happened to the Master in the end? Was that one of the things were not told? Again. It felt like RTD took things out of…his…well, mind, I guess you might call it, without informing us of what was going on. A nuclear bomb? Donna has a defense mechanism? Some defense. And none of the other Masters could go check that she was lying on the ground. Time seemed to stand still in almost every scene, all of it drawn out against realistic time. WTF? Poor editing, poor writing, poor trick ponies, deux ex machinca…as well as new trick threats every so often. None of it felt anything…like anything. You can throw 16 times two missiles at a spaceship and if I don’t care about the ones inside, or feel anything…a similar scene on LOST IN SPACE—the beginning of FORBIDDEN WORLD had ten times the less special effects but twenty times the tension and excitement.

 

We get a flashback in case we forgot how the Master got the stupid drums in his mind. Lots of back and forth quivering from the Doctor and the Master and lots of I got this way because of…and You can be brilliant crap. Endlessly. The fault this time is NOT John Simm. He was trying, he really was. It was the writing and the dialog. The direction is flat and boring.

 

Amid the much crap, was some good lines. Having an old man be a companion is an excellent idea. That he would be honored to be the Doc’s dad and that the Doc would want him as a dad and comparing their ages…great stuff. Too bad there wasn’t a good story to go along with it. Having Wilf slowly walk while the Doc and his alien non pals (He did seem to look down on the cacti) was funny. I also like “He does seem to like playing with Earth girls” and “I think you look like giants” and Donna jibing at Nerys in a funny way “okay friends and Nerys”…and that’s about it. The rest: total cliché crap. Bad fan fic and STAR WARS rip offs.

 

 

The sets: poor at best. The spaceship was okay if unoriginal but Gallifrey. A great big hall and we see what behind Tim Dalton: blackness. A black background. Say what you want about Gallifrey of the old show, the main conference room was better looking that this. And discs full of Dal…I mean STarFleet Klingo…I mean Tmie Lords…so totally poor art design. Really boring.

 

The whole thing is a cheat. The Time Lords weren’t dead the Doc tells us, they were just trapped in a Time Bubble. That they couldn’t get out of. Opps.

 

The dramatic tension of the climax is one thing: it was non existent. Another planet coming in on Earth. Been there, done that and boringly there too. Gerry Anderson did that kind of thing in the 1970s and much, much better. More Earth people running in the streets, no one dies, no one is hurt, nothing changes. Again. Sigh. Why do big Earth changing stories if nothing is gonna change?  It’s pathetic and another cheat.

 

The dramatic tension of a regeneration : this should be the best storytelling moments of DOCTOR WHO but this plays like Tennant and some of his actor pals got together and decided to string out his leaving so as…I know that isn’t the case…to fill a couple of pages. It’s so shockingly poor and badly acted, badly handled, poor overmelodramatic and yet…not dramatic at all…it should have been a huge battle with all his friends around him totally involved in a huge story, you know like last time…and him dying putting himself between them and the outside danger or between the enemy and the outside universe…blasted somehow and then him on the ground, surrounded by all of them and them getting blasted from his energy as he changes…instead…

 

We get… “oh, hang on regeneration, I just wanna pop off and visit a few of my friends that I had in THIS life before you take me away.”  How dull and uninvolving and super sappy. And even THAT doesn’t get a payoff. Sarah Jane doesn’t know what’s going on. WIlf and Sylvia, who should know more, don’t. And what was that all about? The Doctor got a lotto ticket from Donna’s dead father…who…knew that ticket would win? Or did the Doctor get it from Geoff and he knew it would win? Did that make any sense or was I so bored by that time I missed the entire reasoning or logic behind that?

 

Capt Jack at least looked sad that he slew his own grand son and betrayed his daughter and was a helpless sod before that in CHILDREN OF DERTH. But that scene was the worst…like bad fan fiction. He meets Alonzo in the StarWars cantina while Kylie sings in the background and we get implied but not shown or definitive gay slash—of the PG kind or G kind even. The Doc waves goodbye. Oh and yea, Mickey marries Martha…how poor. Was that an alt universe Mickey and Martha? It was in my book. Why couldn’t Martha keep the great guy she had? And Mickey be given another life? And where were they fighting a Sontaran? And how? It was like, “Okay that story sucked, maybe we’ll drop the Doc in another one for a few seconds to say goodbye to two of his old companions without really getting them to talk,”  It also showed how vapid this Doctor was that he would not tell anyone what was happening or give them the benefit of the doubt: he was always pining away that he was alone that he seemed here, not to have any bond with any of them at all. His seeing Rose is the worst of the lot, truly like a bad fan fic or a TRAVELLING COMPANION thing from the Monthly. And didn’t Rose later on notice how the Doctor became this bloke who was drunk…he really didn’t seem drunk so maybe she was drunk thinking he was drunk. SO poor and not even a good nod to great characters.

 

We also get Joan Redfern. At least we found out she was happy. I mean if you wanted a good send off for the Doc, maybe somehow finding the John Smith inside im and separating that bit and allowing him and Joan of the past to have that life that we saw but that they never could have had would have been a better way to end David Tennant’s really shakey (quality wise) time in the TARDIS. I mean who wouldn’t have wanted him to have that life with Joan and live and then die an old, old man…that would have been a truly GREAT SEND OFF. And he’s have children. Who might be part Time Lord, too!!!  But no… we get him standing and regenerating…same old, same old and truly boring. I don’t’ want to go. Oh boo hoo. And the TARDIS starts to get destroyed by this. There’s on precedent for that at all and no reason it should happen except that the next team of the show want a new look TARDIS. Poor.

 

May I add that Matt Smith’s entrance must be the worst entrance of any Doctor. I’d like to say past and future but who knows? Truly offputting this looks like the show is totally over. Matt was so poor in this scene and it was poorly directed, so fast in pace (and in a regeneration scene that’s not a good thing) and so poorly acted and directed, I was stunned by the overall effect, wide eyed by the total crap that his first scene was. It was like a parody of the 9th Doc becoming the 10th. If you compared that regeneration to this one, you’ll see just how poor this one is. My God, what has this show become? It’s so awful!

 

Just who was the old woman? Donna’s offspring? Rose? The Doc’s mum? Did we ever find out? I probably didn’t care at the time. I was trying to keep track of how the “link” could be broken…oh it’s the Master, kill em and they’ll go back to being normal and Gallifrey will snap back into the time bubble. DO IT! No, wait, it’s Rassalon, shoot him and that will break the link. No, wait, dopey Doctor, links are for machines, shoot the machine and that will bring the Gallifrey and the Rassy guy into the Time Bubble and reverse everything. What a mess of a story. Well, wait, there was no story. It was just a bunch of events strung together. Tenuously.

 

Seriously, who was she? Were we told? I was taking notes but stopped when I realized how totally off this was. Even Wilf in the box was badly done. The Doc snaps at him that he won’t save him, he will, he won’t. He would be honored. To SLOWLY, every so SLOWLY (was anything done fast in this story?) die for Wilf. How undramatic. How unlike the Doctor. To die slowly. Even if something had happened in the time he had left to him…maybe it would have been worth it.

 

Oh yeah, every Earth missile aimed at the spaceship and it makes it into the atmosphere. And the aliens think they can escape at the end with a broken window? Is this sci fi? No, not anymore. Every human has become the Master but they can get back to what they once were when the Master is shot. Only he’s not and Rassalon does it with some metal hand thing stolen no doubt from the set of TORCHWOOD. Was there any science in this science fiction show? Was it really not a LORD OF THE RINGS paste off?

 

Wow. I can’t believe it. And Matt Smith’s scenes do not inspire confidence. How utterly awful. Here was me hoping to get all the friends of the Doctor (and I include the Brig in that) round to have an adventure we could all care about and see him off in a dramatic manner, heroic manner with excitement and pace and action and we got this instead. How sad.                     

          

I didn't think my short note would be truncated into some sordid old man / young boy inferance. Was funny though!

Can they take bits and pieces from Star Wars?  For shame to think that the longest running science fiction program couldn't have similarities to other science fiction programs that were created long after DW's inception.  How was all of this relevant to the DW story? 

Anyone who has been watching for the past 4 and a half seasons or so will understand the various themes.  Bad Wolf--Torchwood--The Master--Gallifrey--the point is in the theme.  RTD wanted to bring back Gallifrey and it's mysticism and wonder.  So much was lost in the years that DW was not on air that there is wiggle room for this story to continue, but create some closure in the Doctors adventures as they truly never end.  It wouldn't be DW if it ended now would it? 

Rassilon never wanted to die.  My suspicion is that they can explain it all by stating that Rassilon was peacefully living forever in locked away in his tower until...THE TIME WAR...he was insane already let's cause a little more insanity!

Oftentimes we look for feeling in the bits that surround the Doctor because he is such a feeling character.  This episode was closure for storylines that RTD created in Torchwood and DW, leaving behind open bits and pieces just as they have been left for the past 40 odd years.  That is what aides in creating the legend of the Doctor.  Not everyone will like how RTD finished his run, but respect the man behind the manuscript. 

Furthermore, lets give Matt Smith a bit more credit than we gave Peter Davison.  Following Tennant is as difficult as following Baker, but he brings something to the table that we have yet to judge.  So his regeneration was bittersweet and lackluster.  He also destroyed the inside of the TARDIS.  From what we have seen in the previews this incarnation is not going to be as traumatic as those in the past.  It seems that perhaps the Doctor has gotten over his fears of fighting caused by the Time War and will now be able to perform some of his judo chops that he hasn't done for many years.  It also allows for a new desktop theme for inside the TARDIS (hence the new logo).

There is so much more to who Wilf is then we can even begin to understand.  So much that can be done with regards to the Donna Noble story and others.  Perhaps Martha ended up with Mickey after realizing that she needed to be with someone who she'd be able to share her stories with.  Rose is still with the Doctor as we know him in her alternative reality and he is aging gracefully with her.  This can allow for them both to come back through should the right crisis arise.  Torchwood will be back, I'm sure and with it some new members of the team.  We just need to be open to hearing new bits of the story and believe that SM will begin to answer those questions later this year.  

I could've done without the sappy bit about Joan Redfern but I had to remind myself that it's Doctor Who and it's supposed to be a bit campy!  So I will await the next season like the rest of the Whovian's out there!

Well, I'll tell you something that should be of vital interest to you. That you, Sir, are a NITWIT! ~The Third Doctor

"I think I was building up to something so fantastic in my head, wanting Ten to go out with a huge bang and that I think I've hyped it up way too much in my head"

And yet, for some of us who were sorely disappointed in Pt 1, Pt 2 could only be a step up and we could be pretty content with that. :)

"What did everyone think of the little glimse of Eleven that we got??"

I think we might finally have a regeneration where the Doctor hits the ground running without something having gone wrong with the regeneration.

part of the problem is that RTD feels DOCTOR WHO is about a man traveling through time and space in a police box alone. That's so totally wrong it's not hard to see how he got many of his later scripts wrong. It is also about the people and other aliens who travel with him. Without them, you get this sort of schlock.   

I also forgot to mention endless dialog and a long extended scene of the Earth and Gallifrey colliding while the DOc, Master and Rassalon try to talk about who caused this, wehre they are all from, and what the link is and how it can be broken and WHO the DOctor will shoot and which side he will join...and then "get out of the way" stuff...and did Rassalon need the Doc on his side anyway?

 

Overall not bad.  Not great as one would hope for Tennent's swan song, but not terrible.  Kinda meh just like I feel the show's been since the start of series 3 with a few exceptions.

- The fall from the spaceship and throuh the glass ceiling was just total trash.  Completely unbelievable.  Even if he had some sort of Go-Go-Gadget-parachute, or a Mary Poppins umbrella to help him slow his fall it would've been better.  Once he hit the ground, he should've been either dead or else we should've gotten the regeneration scene into Matt Smith right then.

- I liked the twist of having Wilf knocking 4 times as opposed to it being The Master or The Time Lords or somebody else.

- I've also got no issues with The Doctor having sacrificed his life to save only 1.  It's been done before with regeneration episodes, and I think shows off the selflessness of The Doctor.

- Unless I missed something, exactly what purpose did Donna serve being there?  Other than being related to Wilf, I don't see any reason for her.

- I liked the companion cameos at the end.  When I heard they were all going to be in the finale, I was fearing that it'd be Journey's End/Last of the Time Lords all over again.  But their appearences were short and sweet.

- And THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU, RTD, for not dealing with alternate-universe-Rose.  It was good that Doc10 went back in time to just before he and Rose met, rather than cross the void and say his goodbye that way.

- Time War references are always welcome.  Any pieces of that puzzle are great to see what happened.

- Seeing Rassilon back was also a good twist.  I guess the whole thing about him seeing immortality as a curse (from The 5 Doctors) wasn't true.  I hope we see more of The Time Lords.  It'd be a shame if this was it.

- You have to imagine that we'll see more of the other dissident Time Lord (in addition to the unknown lady - more on her in a sec).  There must be a reason that the 2 kneeling were shown to be against their Gallifreyan plot, rather than just 1 of them (the woman).

- I really don't want to talk about the Time Lord Lady (also the one who was talking to Wilf).  What was implied in Donna's wedding scene is just all too horrible to imagine being true.  I was hoping it'd possibly be Romana, or I'd even be willing to deal with her being The Doctor's mum, or even a wife, but Doc10's reaction after Wilf asked who she was, is just to awful to think about.  Let's just hope that should this storyline be revisited by Moffat, that he'll take it in a different direction.

3 out of 5 for me.  Middle of the road.  Anyway, can't wait until the next series in Spring (hopefully).

About half way through I just lost interest. I know, so what, but after the complete run down provided by Chase, what more could I add. When the Dr. was trying to figure out who to shoot, I actually checked the time to see how much longer this was going to be. I was not drawn into any of the tension or anything, neither was anyone watching with me.

IMO - DW has become just another action series. It could be called CSI:Time and Space or be a spin off from any of the other popular shows on these days. I may still watch but the fan magic is gone for me. From what we saw of the 11th and the trailer, it looks like it is going even more to a generic action adventure show. 

 

Idiom's picture

I just can't make up my mind. I'm not running around saying it was great, so it can't have been great. But I just don't know. I need a little distance then I'll watch it again. Of course, all of our expectations were huge. I really wish we hadn't known about the regeneration - how good it would have been if it has been at the end of the last season.

So I liked the fact that there was a reason for the cactus people to be there and there was a point behind having a planet-ful of masters. I loved the fact that the time lords had gone bad (did that put the daleks on the side of right?) by the end of the time war and the fact that they were ultimately responsible for the master's madness his entire life (I really, really liked that).

And then he fell from the space ship and I just kept thinking about how a smaller fall than that during Logopolis had resulted in regeneration. That could so easily have been avoided- even if we had seen him jump from just above the roof I could have accepted that.

I am really undecided about the long, long regeneration. Again, with a little fore-thought we could have had those scenes as flashbacks (visits he made after WOM knowing that he was going to die).

I don't hate it with the venom that some people seem to have and I can see what RTD was trying to do. To please everybody. It's just that sometimes less is more.

I have a feeling that I will enjoy this so much more when I watch it again in a few months time.

Firstly I am sad David Tennant has gone. He was a brilliant doctor. I am sad that his dismise was not more befitting such a brilliant actor.  Radiation poisoning?  Oh come on!   Only a few  episodes earlier you had us believe that radiation was nothing to a Time Lord.  He played with "runkin bricks in the nursery" after all.  It all seems a little inconsistant to me. 

I am also annoyed that the Time Lords have been slandered.  How can you turn such a noble race into interplanetary thugs over night?  It has just ruined the whole concept of Doctor Who for me.  Time Lords have always been revered in Doctor Who.  For Russel Davies to change that is sacrilige in my mind.  

As for Matt Smith, he just does not have the appeal that Christopher Eccleston and David Tennant had.  There is no cheeky smile or charm.  He looks like a boy who is wearing his daddies clothes.  Sorry Matt, nothing personal but you just don't seem like the doctor to me.

However there is a small glimmer of hope for us David Tennant fans.  There is still the Dr who lives on the parallel world with Rose.  He, unless I have missed major plot lines, is still David Tennant.  Therefore if David chose to revisit the role at any time the option is still there to bring him back.  :-)  Right Russell?

Let's hope I change my mind but so far it looks as if End of Time was the end of the doctor for me.

London Lass

I don't know that I'd label the Time Lords as noble.  That's a subjective term that more than a few species would probably take issue with...The Doctor included...he's never been shy to make his feelings known particularly in the classic series.  But I do agree they seem more brutish than previously known.  However this could simply be due to the Time War and the fact that things weren't going well for them.  A desperate foe is the most dangerous.

"As for Matt Smith, he just does not have the appeal that Christopher Eccleston and David Tennant had.  There is no cheeky smile or charm.  He looks like a boy who is wearing his daddies clothes."

You have to give the guy more than the 60 seconds or so he had on screen to prove himself.  This is the exact same prejudicial mindset that people have had each time we've got a new companion.

"Sorry Matt, nothing personal but you just don't seem like the doctor to me."

Of course he doesn't seem like The Doctor...because we've had somebody else playing the character for the last 4+ years!  You could've made that exact same statement about David Tennant at the end of The Parting of the Ways.  No way you can pre-judge an actor on a few seconds of material.  And of course we all know Tennant nailed the role fine.  I'm not saying MSmith will be great.  Maybe he'll suck...I don't know.  I'm just saying give him a few stories to show off his strengths and uniqueness that he might be able to bring to the role.  Then judge him all you want.

 

Reno_Joe's picture

Generally it was good but I felt that it didnt  have any strong need to connect (if any) to WOM and Part 1 just feels now like a half hour set up for this action pack second part. And from all the build up  , i was getting ready for a good cry  but what was a good short and sweet tearful  moment of goodbye in the 1st part, the last  of the episode seem  like David was wining too much (we all knew he was ready to go with Russel so i think  his comments about not wanting to die are more for the viewers and David fans.) and  didnt seem like any version (past/present/future) of the Doctor. He gave a better regeneration scene in Journey's end,  knowing that he was going to move on and from there to fight Davos and the pepper pots. After 4 years of the 10th Doctor, I expected a better bow then to hang on. And to what? Everyone around him has moved on or is coping without him. He finally came to terms about  the Master and the Time lords.  So it was time for the next Doctor to come in.
It was great seeing Gallifrey during the TW with the wrecked Dalek motherships. But I thought Rassilon would be more less passion seeing he is the greatest timelord and he would live on with those billion years of Timelord history that he will carry with him. In the past he seem not to care much for the little people but Hey this is RTD, everyone has to be emotional. But again, time shows that passion isnt good for any Timelord that isnt either the master or the doctor.
So RTD left Gallifrey the way he started and with one hope to see them  if the master survives (which he will some time in the future) but it is a sad cop out. I  was hoping to see  more of the Timey Wimey Lords and to put the Doctor back on track where he is the best - running but  helping  on the way.
And Donna and her metacrisis was handle way too easily. Why couldnt the Doctor just let what happen to her in this final show back at at the end of JE and let her be ok. I was kinda hoping she would face the timelords or put an end to the master.
As to the lady in white,  anybody's guess is  good as the next -  The Doctor's mother,  wife, real daughter, a future form of Susan or even Romana.
Too early to see what Matty will be like  but after the wining that david gave us,  it was great to have the old wide eye adventurous Doctor back.
And one more thing about the Smith's Doc trailer of things to come - The Daleks again???
I know they are beloved in jolly ol' England but I m sure most would agree , lets see something new  or a different baddy returning. Good to see the Angels are coming  back, so dont ...well you know what not to do. .. ;)

Cant wait to hear the boys take on things including  Darth's comments on Sunday.

 

 

So.... I'm confused.  Rassilon was the father of Time Lord Culture, who lived and died a heck of a long time ago, yes?  So, how could Timothy Dalton's character BE Rassilon?  Was he possessed?  That's all I could think of, I mean, the President was stuck in the Time Lock(y thingy), so he had to be some sort of contemporary of the Doctor, right?  Since it was the Doctor who created the Time Lock.  Just didn't get that point.

 

Other than that, (and overlooking the fall through the domed glassw window from a great height, let alone at great speed, and overlooking the fact that he's taken in radiation before and simply lost a shoe), I thought it was enjoyable.  I did tear up, but no blubbering which people told me to expect. 

And now I am completely ready for Mr. Smith to be #11.

supremacy is relative

Reno_Joe's picture

Because the war was going  so costly for the Timey Wimey Lords,  they brought all the great Gallifreyan warriors (including the Master and Rassilon) back to fight in the final war which was already in a time lock, I guess,  to protect the rest of the univerise/time. That is why no one could  interfere with the war (except for Dalek Cann who suffered for it)... being the only survivior, the Doctor was able (to end the lock?) move back in normal time.
As for Rassilon, since he is the greatest of all timelords (well except for the one we all love) and was the first lord president,  he took command like all generals like to do. And he, I bet, had the power to timelock the war. Dont need Davos and pepper pots  to cheat by  going through time to gain any advantage or escape.
My guess since they were losing (or he was,)  Rassilon, like Hitler and Davos, went mad and started the notion of the end of time.

And dont all men who go mad spit out words? (well maybe not the master,  he just too cool to do that)

yeah, there was much comment at my watch party on the spitting.  Comments went from "gosh, is it method acting and he's rabid?" to "didn't he get his dentures in correctly?"

So, I like this explanation, but did I miss it being discussed in the show? Or is this your (very good) conjecture?

And I was kind of wondering if maybe all Presidents of Gallifrey went mad (except for Romana, of course), or it was just because he was (as we discovered) Rassilon.

supremacy is relative

Reno_Joe's picture

Actually I was  kinda joking  about the spiting and  on the last podcast, the guys were joking around about it with comments like yours.  So  i dont know for sure that RTD planned that Dalton was doing  that  but it did add to performance of a Timelord going insane.

As for the mental condition of the #1 head honcho of the council, like regular  leaders, we have those that were good,  others that are corrupt and and many that are so-so.  I think the true problem lies with the council. Every time we see those guys with their dome helmets and cog collars, they just act like they can do anything  without the word of the president and wont speak up. Well we had one did but she made the mistake of speaking  up to Rassilon (bad idea for anyone without  timelord/time vortex power coming out of your hands)
But I had a hard time believing that Rassilon would get so emotional about things (I guess that is RTD making  the coolest customer of all Gallifrey into like everyone else in his stories.) In the past he was like a god sitting on a thone, knowing what is good for the timelords  and everyone else and there was no changing his mind. And those few ex-presidents/time lords that try to fool him or cheat him, he just dealt with them with a blink of a eye. So why would he be so passion about things now or go insane.  He could  just go back to his tomb and lay there. For all he was concern, He was Gallifrey.
It would been more convincing if Dalton was just a regular lord president that knew he was going  to be the last one if he didnt do something quickly to save his race. Just one of those ones that thought he was doing the only thing to win and convince himself to take Rassilon's glove to lead the troops. That would be a better explaination for any leader like that to go insane.
The glove was ok ,  but they should had a battle helmet for Dalton to wear like Rassilons usually wears,  then it would been more clearly who he was.
It seems that in the last 5 years or so every timelord regeneration went wrong when they come back...Something in the water or they cant hold their regeneration like they used to?
I hope this stops with Moffat. Timelords are better when they are doing things with all their marbles with a plan (good or evil)

Huh? Regenerations ARE something going wrong. They're tricky from the start. The second Doctor wasn't totally stable when he first came out of it. The Third Doctor passed out I believe and HIS was engineered by the Time Lords. As for the Fourth...well....the Fifth wasn't stable either mostly in body. The Sixth...nuff said. The 7th was a mess to start with. The 8th Doctor might be the fastest recovery. 9th we'll never know but he might have been...newly regenerated when we first saw him but a few scenes (ALL in ROSE) later after he leaves and comes back...he might be the 9th Doctor far longer than we saw him for .

I HATE that every time there's a regen, the Doctor or the Master do it standing up! WHY every tme? It makes it boring   

Louis Trapani's picture

I HATE that every time there's a regen, the Doctor or the Master do it standing up! WHY every tme? It makes it boring

Well only in recent years. Most of the of the Doctor's regenerations as you know have occurred while he was laying down.

Cheers,
Louis

Louis Trapani's picture

Huh? Regenerations ARE something going wrong. They're tricky from the start.

Not every regeneration is a crisis point. As illustrated by Romana I into Romana II, it could be done as a matter of fact thing if they choose it. Almost as traumatic as getting a hair cut.

Cheers,
Louis

"So, how could Timothy Dalton's character BE Rassilon?"

Simple: he was resurrected for the Time War. Just as The Master was.

 

As for the unnamed woman, well, it's typical of RTD not to leave holes to be filled later, but simply to leave holes period.

And if it was stated in the Confidential or Commentary, it's best to ignore it; if it isn't on screen, it doesn't matter, since some other writer could come along and write something that will be on screen.

<<<And if it was stated in the Confidential or Commentary, it's best to ignore it; if it isn't on screen, it doesn't matter>>>>>>>>>>>>

Bullldinkies! That's kind of bad thinking that's made this show a complete mess. Of course it matter because IT WAS ON SCREEN. There was this woman who was on screen. The writers just never bothered to tell us who she was or what she was or where she was from. That's lazy writing and/or not taking a stand. And that theme ran all through this: lazy lazy lazy. Poor writing. Period. 

I think the music played when they showed her at one point was Rose's theme so maybe she is old Rose but I would hate that fact if it were true. Maybe she;'s Leela!!!!

Reno_Joe's picture

I just read that Julie Gardner stated that it was hinted to be his mother
This was hinted that the Doctor thought Wilf would have been a great dad. In the way he said it,  you get the feeling that ol' Doc lost his father a long time ago.
Maybe that is why she went to Wilf for help.
And maybe she was the one behind wilf poping up over the years with the Doctor.

 

Mr. Magister's picture

For a moment I allowed myself to think that the two kneeling women would be revealed to be Leela & Romana - but alas, that would have been too perfect.

Mr. Magister

Reno_Joe's picture

If the lady in white was his mother as Julie Gardner stated, the other could be either woman or even his daughter, his wife or Susan

This might be a little pedantic for my first post but Julie Gardner said she thinks or believes that the woman is his mother she didn't say it out right, it seemed as if it was just a guess.

Troy Baker's picture

If you have the commentary on the episode (that ran on BBC Radio 7), Julie Gardner and Russell T. Davies talk about this very thing. I'd reccommend listening to the it for the info.

 

BTW: It is available through the BBC iPlayer here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00pkvzt

Since it is from the BBC it may be region -locked. So far it isn't but that may change.

However it is available through iTunes as a podcast. You'll have to get it quick though, they are not on iTunes for very long. Just Enter 'Docotr Who: The Commentaries" in the search box.

namariee's picture

The farewell to the 10th Doctor has produced a wild mix of thoughts and emotions. Overall I enjoyed End of Time, the second part seemingly stronger than the first. Some initial impressions:

- Ten falling that distance and not regenerating immediately, as poor Four had to?

- The woman in white. I first thought it might be the white guardian, but now I think it was probably his mother.

- Fabulous to have an older male companion. More please!

- Love Simm but not really crazy about his interpretation of the Master (from a Delgado fan).

- Have always liked seeing Gallifrey and the Time Lords. Are they locked up again in the time bubble now? Is the Master with them? I thought Timothy Dalton was supposed to be Ten's father? Don't know if I like him being Rassilon.

- Very appropriate that Ten sacrificed himself for 1 person. Liked that he was fighting it all the way. As Dylan Thomas put it  "Rage Rage against the dying of the light".

- That said, I felt the ending a bit drawn out. Loved seeing him visit all his former companions (WTF with Martha and Mickey?), but it was a bit of an anti-climax when he finally regenerated. How long did it take for him to really feel the effects of the radiation? 

- A bit of a thrill to see the first glimpse of Eleven. Whets my appetite for more.

That it for now. Will mull it over a bit more.  :)

 

 

 

In at least one spin off series, Leela is implied to be the Doc's mum or maybe they were just going to name their baby after him?

Okay, my earlier blog eschewed all of you that did not seem to appreciate our 10th Doctor's exit, however, after viewing both parts 1 and 2 back to back, I can honestly say I am phenominally disappointed. 

I will admit to several good laughs, I was rolling on the floor when the Star Wars moment struck (being a huge SW fan as well); there were also several touching moments, the Doctor's mini-break down in the cafe with Wilf, the talk between the Doctor and Wilf on the asteroid salvage ship, the Doctor's mini-soliloquy before entering the glass box (I was having a moment on that one, as he was almost whining a bit), and ironically enough, the moment the Master said "Get out of the way."  The whole 'Timelords are bad' thing became painfully evident very early on (besides--Timothy Dalton just oozes bad guy voice) which kind of lessened the entire overall effect.

Posit?  Could the Master and the Doctor be brothers?  Was the mystery woman the mother of them both? 

I felt a moment of LOTR with the multiple endings.  I really didn't like the long drawn outness of it.  What was up with Martha and Micky, anyway?!  How dissapointed must the Doctor have been that they wound up actually fighting and killing?!  And the bit with Jack seemed cheap, that really hurt.  Jack deserved better than the Doctor handing him another one night stand as a good-bye gift.  And a lottery ticket for Donna--give me a break!  The only acceptable parts were Verity's very touching "Were you?" and his getting to see Rose one last time.

And I know that RTD was creative enough to do it and still get the next Doctor slotted into place--so why in the bloody 'ell did the Doctor have to die all alone!!!  The poor man has been so alone all this time, didn't he at least deserve to have a friend nearby in his final moments?!  At least someone to shed a tear for him?!  (Besides his thousands of fans, of course)

I will say that Wilf was an excellent, excellent couterpart for the Doctor, driving him gently, and comforting him.  That interplay was splendid to watch.  All in all, I am upset not so much by the fact that David Tennant will no longer be our Doctor (and I am SERIOUSLY distressed over that!), but by RTD's poor send off of such a brilliant man.

And, no, this does not mean that I haven't already re-watched these episode three times since last night!

And the new guy is bleeding UGLY!!!!

Having said all this, there is one thing I forgot...David's performance, despite all the aforementioned barriers, was truly magnificient!  Outstanding!  Brilliant!  I love you, David!!!

President Nice's picture

And the new guy is bleeding UGLY!!!!

Yes because Tom Baker, for example, was the most handsome man in the world. I mean really, what difference does that even make? Did you like the lines he delivered? Are you looking forward to seeing him tackle the role? You don't mention him at all apart from to make an unneccessary personal comment. I thought Doctor Who fans were better than that.

Tardis-Knight's picture

I completely enjoyed it and bits of were great. For better or worse, I enjoyed it more after I'd seen the Confidential

 

I loved the Cantina scene and personally I was a great fan of the "reward" scenes in general. The  overall tone of them was sad, but  they remained fun moments that nicely rounded off the end of an era. Horses for courses, but personally I think some people should just lighten up.  

 

Goodbye to the brilliant brilliant David Tennant, thanks for everything.

And goodbye and good luck to RTD. I don't think everyrthing he did was perfect, but reading Who forums over the last few years, you could often have been forgiven for thinking he was nothing short of the anti-Christ. Doctor Who owes him a lot. Cheers mate.

Nothing Dies Of Old Age On Skaro!
namariee's picture

I agree. RTD was not always perfect  (who is?) but I loved a lot of what he did for and in the show, and his passion for Doctor Who cannot be denied.

Thanks RTD for bringing back The Doctor in such a fabulous way and for entertaining us for the last 5 years. Good luck to you, and good luck to Moffat and the new cast and crew.

 

AloysiusXII's picture

Well, this finale was like the entirety of Series 4- brilliant acting and dialogue, excellent smattering of hints and clues and foreshadowing leading up to it, bloody awful plotting/story-telling. Unlike seasons past, however, at least the build up surrounding the "4 knocks" was actually a worthy and unexpected "surprise". And like how Series 4 was in many ways my least favorite it had my favorite companion in Donna, TEoT has my favorite regeneration scene- both for the actual demise of the current Doctor (meaning Ten's desire to remain, even to the very end, broke my heart and totally transcended the lackluster "main" story) and the intro for the next. I am insanely ready for this next series!

"Please do not throw hands at me." -D89
Aurelius's picture

What more is left to say, either in praise or fuming rage? I leave with but a few thoughts that have been nagging and intriguing me the last few days.

Through gritted teeth I must admit that I grudgingly liked the story … overall. I will not get into the numerous problems—and they are many—with this story. Once I came to this admission, I began to ask myself: “why?” The story is a mess and makes little or no sense in some parts (see Chase’s posts for a more complete bashing). I then began to realize that story almost seemed like it was written backwards: as if RTD came up with the end, how 10 was going to regenerate, and asked himself: “how can I do this?” And working from there, threw one thing in after the other, building back, until he had assembled enough pieces that marginally held together. How else can one explain why certain people (Timelords, the green aliens, the ship in space, Naismith) were even included in the story? This explains the outward mess of the story, but not the (marginal) feelings invoked by the story.

We are saying good-bye not only to 10 but to RTD. Good or bad, love or hate, he is gone, maybe not for good, but gone. This was RTD’s swan song and not the 10’s and I think, ultimately, therein lays the problem. This is a story about leaving, about regeneration not only for the Doctor, but for the show. It was the focus—“I’m going to die; I don’t want to go”—not only of this story but the one previous (Waters of Mars). We’ve never had a regeneration like this before, where it is the focus of the story. Usually, the story comes first and the regeneration is an after effect of something that happened in the story—I think that is why it leaves such a bitter, bad taste in our mouths or that we feel cheated in someway. We wanted so much for this to mean something—a battle with the Master, a plan to foil the Timelords, something big but we got something little: the Doctor sacrificing himself for lowly Wilf, a nobody, no one important. We like that, that is who the Doctor is, and it redeems his choice of “Time Lord Victorious” and that scene and the meaning of the “four knocks” resonated with us, just not the two hours beforehand that lead us to that. In the end, we are left feeling confused and befuddled, cheated and saddened, maybe not for all of the same reasons, but all the same nonetheless.

With that said, some observation and speculation:

-           for Torchwood fans (and detractors) didn’t Rassilon’s glove look familiar?

-           Doctor stated his age as 906—in “Voyage of the Damned,” didn’t he state his age as 903?

-           The two Ttimelords kneeling at the end … who knows who they were, the argument is tiresome and pointless and we may never know (I hoped it would be Romana), but what is interesting to me, is how they were brought forth—kneeling, heads bowed, hands covering their eyes. Certainly reminded me of the Weeping Angels.

And finally, some musings about the 10th’s connection to the beloved 4th. While most make the connection between 10 and 5 (even 10 himself!) I am more inclined to find similarities between 10 and 4:

-           both start off, happy-go-lucky; interested and dazzled by the universe, charming and charismatic, a sly smile on their faces

-           both have a dark side, a side they fight, a side that knows how truly and utterly powerful they could become

-           the 4th’s loss of Romana, casts a shadow over him that he never fully recovers from; and the 10’s dealing with the loss, not only of 3 companions, but all the companions he has ever had

-           the 3-story arch that ends their lives—each involving the Master and prophecy (4 with the Watcher, and the psychic’s warning to 10)

-           in the end though, the main difference lies: 4, I believe willing let himself go whereas 10, fought it to the bitter end

Just ideas. Questions, comments, scathing rebuttals welcome.

Enjoy all.

P.S. loved the 2 min-ish cameo of Matt Smith. At first it didn’t feel right, but on re-watches, it feels and looks perfect. Can’t wait to see more. And for those who already think that he is rubbish based on this, that is akin to a child trying vegetables for the first time: they smell it, fold their arms and declare as loud as they can, “I don’t like it!” And the preview for Season 5 is also brilliant—have watched it nearly a dozen times. And for those who dismiss it for seeming too action-adventurey or not on par with past previews … have rewatched the past previews and this holds its own with those … my question then would be, “What would you prefer for a preview? Hmm?” A bunch of dialogue scenes or scenery shots with calming music in the background? Dislike is one thing, but unbounded dislike for the sake of dislike is another.

Cheers.

 

"Gosh, that takes me back. Or forward. That's the trouble with time travel; you can never remember." (The Doctor, The Androids of Tara)

There';s a fan ficiton story done months before this travesty about a Newer Master having gone back to ancient Gallifrey to help the Doctor end the games that Rassilon started. IT features the Master helping the Doctor put things right in time and them both facing off Rassilon! It is xxx rated but it rang truer than this mess. Again, I do like Wilf's scenes for the most part and there were some funny lines and some touching moments but overall the story is cheat, a mess, and very undramatic and very boring in many many spots. Donna gets to lay down on the job and is left there ...for how long? She added nothing to the story. The spaceship scenes are the first of many irrelevant ones and STAR WARS rip offs. The Time Lords and Tennant and the Master can't seem to have their minds made up about which way they are going to turn. Whoops, i't's the Master who's the link, no it's the Rassalon guy (who...oh why bother all this again? It sucked.      

Nope. Didn't make it. Well, there's no way I'd make this garbage. Anyway< I tried to watch this travesty again and couldn't. I just couldn't. I tried to watch the regen...it couldn't be that bad could it? Well yeah it was. I wanted to try to get a feel for this show again, to feel the same thing I Felt when watching Chris's Doctor...and I must say that Matt Smith just ain't it. Well to be fair, it was just a poorly written, poorly filmed, ;poorly directed bit of nonsense repeating the same thing when David regenerated. Onl there it worked and was fresh and had a companion standing by. No spitting. No Geronimo, not even an Allonsey, thank God. Honstly, I'm seriously worried about this show and I DO so want it to work, it's got the best idea for a series, really it does. Matt's first scene was so poor...   

CIAshock's picture

As i went through the holiday's anxiously awaiting the final Tennant episodes, i started reading the forums, and i was totally disenchanted by what i read, i felt like roger ebert was hacking my favorite show. certain individuals were hacking and slashing at Tiny, Tiny points in an episode, in a nitpicking way that no star trek fan has ever done. I then had the second shock of peoples opinions being blasted just cause they liked it. guess what, I loved it, and I invite you to tell me why im apparantly stupid. Come on my show Mr. Chase, and we will discuss it in an adult manner, and i guarantee you will be treated in an adult manner. I have never seen the forums like this, i mean sure there are disagreements, but this is like getting made to listen to Miley Cyrus sing the hokey pokey for 24 hours straight. Louis, Ken, And james have raised the bar on how to discuss and disagree about things in a nice way, and i think we should take a page from thir 500 yr diary, and get back to normal discourse. the biggest pet peeve is blasting Matt Smith for the small amount of footage we've been shown, i remember some of the same people blasting Tennant for the same kinds of stuff, and i bet they are eating crow right now, and that goes for catherine tate too, she surprised everyone. Now lets trust Steven Moffatt, like we keep saying, to know what is good for the show, and i hate it for ya Russell T. isn't a bad writer, we just have seen so much stuff its hard to surprise us, and that is the root of all problems. So, lets discuss this like adults on CIA on sunday at 12:00 PM, come one, come all, especially you Mr. Chase, you will have a live audienct to discuss this in front of, and you will be treated with respect.

Cheers

West Hubbard

CIA-Cultdom Cn Audio 

http://www.talkshoe.com/tc/30659

Be Seeing You
romana_II's picture

I'm with you West, glad to see someone who shares my opinion.


I went on a bit of rant about this on the other thread for part 1, and I didn't get the best feedback on it, all through I might of been a little horomonal and angry, but I tired to be civil.


I'll be on the show, even through me agreeing with you might not make an interesting discussion, but it will at least get a lot of steam off my chest that I usually can't bring up most of the time.

~Hysterical Woman #1088~
The Wailing Fangirl Podcast

CIAshock's picture

you were the reason i wanted to say something, the way you got slammed for your preferences was not acceptable, ive never seen that kind of ganging up here ever. so were gonna discuss it.


cheers

West

Be Seeing You
romana_II's picture

awww thanks. :)

I was quite depressed that night reading peoples comments, added to the fact that I was also quite tired and slightly hormonal, probably didn't help, so I might of been a little more emotional that I would normally be that night, but still, I throught I was being civil, and then.... yeah -_-

I ended up walking away from that thread, because I knew that I wouldn't win no matter how hard I tired, so I saved myself the emo of being told I was wrong repeatingly and left it alone.

But yes, looking forward to having a good old debate about this, I will attempt to keep my serious business hat on at 4 in the morning.

~Hysterical Woman #1088~
The Wailing Fangirl Podcast

Great finale!

Tennant and Cribbins were at their best. I also loved Dalton and was hoping the Master would steal his body and escape so Dalton could be the next Master.

I didn't think he'd be the supposedly-dead Rassillon but it fits the whole consciousness thing he was talking about (tying in nicely with The Five Doctors) unless it was merely a resurrection using his bio data. Was that the Hand of Omega he was using???

The special effects were great, particularly with the salvage ship.

Wilf in the auto laser cockpit was hilarious. Wilf knocking four times was chilling. Donna regaining her memories and wiping out half a dozen Masters was cool.

The greater-than-the-Pharos-Project-fall was far-fetched unless his regeneration is a fixed point in time and therefore the fall couldn't "kill" him. The only real negative for me.

Surprising and brilliant continuity quote: "'They will stand in shame like the Weeping Angels of old."

The final showdown worked for me. We got Gallifrey and the Time Lords at last but not too much that it spoiled the mystery. I'm sure the woman is the Doctor's mum. Still doesn't explain the half-human conundrum though (if RTD even considers that canon).

The guest-cast scenes at the end were a little fan-wankish by RTD but they did fit the mood at that point of the episode and it was nice to see those characters. The prolonged regeneration could be explained by an act of will power by the Doctor. As a Time Lord he should have more control over regenerations than he's shown in the past anyway.

His line "I don't want to die" was almost as emotional as some of scenes in Children of the Earth. I was worried about another standing-up regeneration but I loved how the radiation shot out and burned the TARDIS interior. Matt Smith's intro was fun.

Although I'm certain The Master escaped, I doubt he took Rassilon's body.  Simm is The Master until Moff says otherwise.  That being said, I think Dalton would've been great as The Master!  I could totally see him in the part and would've even believed that this Dalton character was a future/reincarnated/fresh-regeneration version of The Master.

I respectfully disagree with the notion that the mystery woman was his mother...although I would LOVE that to be the case, compared with the theory I'm about to present now:

- In TEOTp2, when Wilf is wandering around the spaceship in orbit, he runs into the mystery woman and she tells him it's The Doctor's final battle, blah blah blah.  Wilf asks who she is.  She replies "I was lost...so very long ago".

- Flashback to The Satan Pit...scene where the whole crew is gathered in the control room and The Beast is speaking to them all.  As he is referring to each of the crew, he gets to Rose and calls her (exact quote escapes me): "The lost girl so very far away from home who will soon die in battle"

Ergo: Lost Girl = Lost Mystery Woman = Rose

To refer to Rose as "lost" in The Satan Pit didn't make much sense.  She's not really lost in any shape that made sense at the time.  I think this was RTD inserting another 1 of his clues for reference in a future story (TEOT).  I still shudder when I think of the consequences of this...Rose locked in the Time War and part of the High Council of Time Lords...anybody that can disprove my theory will be thanked greatly.

namariee's picture

I have never seen the prolonged regeneration needing to be explained. Not all deaths are equal. Just as Ten said that he could definitely die if he didn't have time to regenerate. Dying from radiation can take a while, but he knew that it was happening and wished to see all his companions one last time before he went.

I personally thought Matt's intro was a lot of fun. The only thing I wish could have happened was that Ten had someone with him as he regenerated. I understand RTD wanting to leave a clean slate for the new writers and crew, but I think that Wilf should have been with him so he wasn't alone.

 

 

romana_II's picture

I agree, radiation does not kill you instantly, well doesn't kill a Timelords instantly, that much is seen in Smith and Jones. It has to be an insane amount of radiation needed to kill a Timelord, plus it could be debated that the Doctor's fall could of also been part of it as well.

I also think that the Doctor, because he was so fond of his current form, and plus he wanted to see everyone one last time, was forcing himself not to regenerate for as long as he could. So once he gets into the Tardis and can't hold it back anymore, his regeneration is all the more explosive and violent (it wrecks the Tardis afterall) but then again, Steven might give us another explaination behind the new Tardis interior.

~Hysterical Woman #1088~
The Wailing Fangirl Podcast

namariee's picture

oooh yes...

well put. The explosive regeneration could very well be because of Ten's strength of will in wanting to stay. I like it!  :)

Now...how smooth will Eleven's "first 15 hours" of regeneration be?

 

 

If the 'Mystery Woman' was indeed the Doctor's wife then surely that makes him a bigamist, what with his betrothal to Good Queen Bess and all that...

Or maybe each regenration can have a wife...sort of Polygamistically Transcendental (to coin a phrase).

Or maybe not. Over to you, the listener, for your thoughts!

:) 

CIAshock's picture

sort of like "big love" in the tardis, lol

Be Seeing You

All those wives...and even worse, all those mother in laws!!!!

I found an interesting discussion about the unsolved mysteries of The End of Time. Great if you can't get enough of Doctor Who theories.

Figuring Out Doctor Who's Lingering Mysteries

I just saw this and I"m not sure what show you mean for me to go on but I have no idea how to go on a show on line. I will say I"m sorry if I attacked anyone...sometimes I can be perceived as doing that and I am sorry for that. I don't mean to attack anyone personally but sometimes people on here don't want to hear anything negative at all and I mean, c'mon, look at those two hours of hokem...anyway I also rewatched the stuff from the Mickey/Martha stuff to the end and to be honest, with a new outlook and seeing it about four more times, I did feel sad....sad...sad. I did cry. But it comes down to what I feel DW should be after so many years of (and I like those years and I always said I liked Catherine Tate in general...but not every ep she's in has a great performance...JOURNEY'S END comes to mind) sad lonely Doctor...we now get the Doctor who had the most companions sad and lonely and regenerating alone...why? I will defend the show, this show to be allowed to do ANYTHING but often it stays stuck in a rut and I think this lonely Doctor stuff...I dunno, was just too much and the ending so bleak and sad...yes, this time I did feel something...more that Tennant was leaving. It DID have a bvetter ending than I last thought.  ANd perhaps I am eating crow about these endings (for there are more than one)...I still hate the Martha Mickey thing. THe Luke getting saved thing: that's fine, I wouldn't want Luke to die...but chances are he will have more to do with saving Earth and history than Adelaide did and the Doc was not supposed to save her...tha'ts tghe bs that does go along with almost all DW...why not save Luke, Adric, and Adelaide (who, I"m sorry, still had a most perverse reacxtion to solve history's problem with her...why not just vanish? or leave town or go off with the Doc? but shooot yourself?). I did like Sarah's look at the goodbye and the acting was good there. Jack/ALonzo: okay I like fan fic and that was a cute scene but why wouldn't Jack want to talk to the Doc and does the DOc know what happened to Jacxk? There's a thousand questions that could be discussed between them...where the hell was he during Earht's time of need? So instead of ironing out that...the Doc sets him up with another gay guy. Okay. That's the trouble with Tennant's time in the show...meaningful relationships are set up and then discarded and the Doc seems to have connected/and not connected with everyone/no one. It's as if they tried to have it both ways. The best part is the meeting of the granddaughter or great granddaughter of the woman Joan. That was brilliant acting from both of them adn great music and writing there alhtuhg the woman's speech to the book signer was a bit stilted but it had to be to set it up for us. Donna's wedding was nice but again, I feel that her part in all this was...not fulfilling...yes, she did have a happy ending. ANd I LOVE that. I still would have loved to see her with the guy that escaped/lost her in that library story. The other thing is WIlf and Sylvia. THey are awesome in that scene and now I get the idea. Why the DOc has no money in the TARDIS is beyond me and how he set it up  that Geff gave him a quid, I'll never know but...it was done just to include everyone and tha'ts nice but behind the scenes stuff doens't make a good scene and the scene as played is okay and not terrible. As for what the Doc looked at when WIlf asked him about his strange old lady: he looks at Slyvia and Donna so it could be...Susan or Jenny or his mum...Then we have the Rose scene and that also makes me cry. It was nice but again, he's changing something there, isn't he? Then the Ood sing...odd that in the first appearance in their first story they seem almost robotic and here...it's a bit NEVERENDING STORY isn't it? Nice and then we have that awesome theme music when the DOc regenerates and to be honest, it's a good regeneration...even if the Doc is pitying himself....and Tennant seems to think that it is wrong to go there in the CONFIDENTIAL afterward...but never mind, it's stunning and amazing and the TARDIS exploding, I get it. Now. Then we get Matt Smith. IN contrast to Tennant's stiff, dreary sad depressing ending for like or what seemed like 20 min, the Doctor is hopping, spitting, yelling, making jokes...it's hardly original and hardly great but still better than I thought. I still think all of it could have been much much better and the spirit of fun and adventure that has been DW for the past five years could have had more to this ending than this...it really was okay but not great. As for the stuff before the fan fic endingS: the Doc whining about his death (doesn't he know that when humans die they can't regeneratre, the complaining nutter), the Master, Rassalon, the gun thing, the fall from the ship, the STAR WARS gun turret, etc, it's all pretty bad.  This time out  though, I can't fault John Simm, he was pretty good despite a poor cliffhanger, a poor script and poor direction.        

Could the mystery woman be none other than the Doctor's alleged wife from New Adenture canon, Patience?

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Patience

I finally saw the End of Time. The first episode was awful. It felt rushed and lacked any sort of cohesion. The super hero Master bit was unexplained and annoying. The plan for the immortality machine seemed contrived.

After watching part 2 things got a little better. There were too many loose ends. Was there a point to the stained glass window scene? What about the immortality machine? The multiple Masters did nothing to get after Donna?

The TARDIS gets destroyed and the only reason I can think of for that is so #11 can rebuild it. And to show of some cool CGI.

Overall this was a typical RTD episode. He has said he never like scientific explanations in DW, a point of view I take exception to. The Doctor is a scientist, he likes to explain things.

Now the good stuff. The acting was brilliant, the music was brilliant. I like the fact that the Doctor was able to visit his past and say goodbye. I liked Matt's introduction. The overall pace of the story was good if you watched the parts together.

Now for the explanation. They rarely get gun stuff correct on TV, so I just ignored this point in this episode. Wilf's gun did not need to be cocked repeatedly. Once the Doctor pulled back the hammer, the gun was in single action mode which meant a light trigger pull would have fired it. The only way to return the hammer to it's original position would be to fire the gun or ease the hammer back. But TV loves the sound of a cocked gun so they just kept throwing it in there. I believe (but I am not certain) that the trigger was in the wrong position in the close ups but I am not sure about that. I do know that they cocked the gun unnessarily in that scene. But as I said, they get that wrong so often on TV, I just ignore it.

In closing, I give it 3.5 TARDIS groans. I am glad RTD brought back the show but it's time for some new talent.

Keep up the good work, guys.

Stephanie

The 10th Doctor went out like a petulant child...'I don't want to go!

I've heard this critique several times. After all he is just going to regenerate. Or was he?

The way I read it was the 10th Dr thought he was really going to die this time. That is die fin, end, as in it's all over baby. No regeneration nothing. just Dying. If this is the case and that is the way I saw it, His carry on was perfectly in keeping and made a nice tear jerker ending.

It also explains why the 11th Dr was so excited about being alive in the 11th Hour.

 

 

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